Mike, you must be a Rabbi because at least you recognize the atrocities of killing the children. Those are war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I started taking interest in Israel/Palestinians situation closely in the fall of 2008 when Israel invaded Gaza and slaughtered women and children. My source of information has been CNN, CBC and MSNB who are hardly pro-Gaza or Palestinians. As a matter of fact CNN quite often is blatantly pro-Israel.
Here is my assessment:
1) It was because of Israel that 9/11 happened. People of Egypt and Saudi Arabia are angry with US for imposing dictators on them. Then US made sure that these two countries are on US side when it came to Israel. Of course US wants Saudi Oil too. Now the same Egyptian and Saudi public is angry because of the way Palestinians are treated by Israel and massacred at will. That resulted in 9/11 tragedy, as you know all the participants were Arabs and majority were from Saudi Arabia and some from Egypt. 2) Then of course Afghanistan was invaded and Arab world feels that it is direct consequence of US/Israeli relations. Had there been no 9/11 there would have been no Afghanistan invasion. 3) Iraq invasion was for oil but it was also urged on by Israel, as it felt threatened by Iraq as it does now from Iran.
Now the world is catching on with Israel. Gaza massacre was roundly condemned by all nations. Now even US does not approve of Israeli policies and has indicated that Israel is endangering its soldiers in the Middle East.
Europe condemns Israeli policies; Asian countries with the exception of Israel condemn Israeli policies. Australia condemns Israeli policies. African countries condemn Israeli policies. Israel has no friends left because of its slaughter of Arabs and disapproval by the world. So, sir, Israel is on a self-destruct path.
The Palestinians are *lucky* to have Israel as an enemy. Here is why:
In the Rwandan genocide 800,000 people were slaughtered.
In Darfur 300,000 people were slaughtered.
In the Armenian genocide only 1,500,000 people were slaughtered.
In the Holocaust, 6,000,000 Jews were slaughtered.
During the entire Gaza invasion only about a 1,400 people died, about 400 to 700 of them were militants.
The words "slaughter" or "massacre" could not be used to describe what happened in Gaza. If Israel wanted to slaughter or massacre, the numbers would be in the hundreds of thousands.
If Israel was like Germany, Austria or most European countries which you bring as an example, it would wipe the Palestinian long before now. It will not have so much tolerance as it does.
Today, they don't get that Israel is doing the dirty but necessary work of stopping the Arab world from having an Iranian base right next to Europe. They should be thankful, but they don't get it. Once the muslim population in their countries crosses a threshold, let's see what they'll do. I hope they will be more creative this time.
"The Palestinians are *lucky* to have Israel as an enemy."
You have crossed the line of being a loony. Total population of Gaza is $1.5 Million. How many more they have to kill to qualify as murderer.
When a reputed Jewish British MP says that Israel is being like a Nazi then there is something wrong. When vast majority of Liberal Jews in America say Israel is wrong then there is food for thought for you.
When the whole world says Israel is wrong then you should give yourself a pause, shake your head and think about it.
I will be totally on Israeli side if following happens:
The Israeli war criminal are tried in an international court and convicted, when Israel abides by UN resolutions and pulls back to 1967 boundaries prior to 1967 war and when it recognizes Palestine as an independent state. Anything Arabs do against Israel after that I will be the first one to speak up. Until such time I will speak for the victims and against the war criminals.
Nough said. Go somewhere else because your bull is becoming annoying. I felt sympathetic towards you but not anymore.
Israel started already to pull back to 1967 borders on 2005. It stopped since it got more terror in return. The Palestinians will not be satisfied with what you think they will.
Good bye now, and I truly wish you will *not* experience Muslim terror on yourself or your loved ones.But if you will, maybe you'll finally get it.
I always deleted this guy's comments but he then chose to leave a comment on my test blog. He was terribly mad at me. I left the comment for the record. I am sure he would have broken my bones if could find me. That is how it goes.
I will do one more post with you in mind and you will get the idea where I am coming from.
Yeah, that comment you linked to is stupid and not helpful. Unlike that guy, I try to keep the discussion around facts and avoiding making it personal against you or anyone else, although we disagree. There is no way anyone would listen to the Israeli side of the story if it will not be told in the right way. And it is a shame, because I think you miss Israel's side of things.
I am not a fanatic. I am far from it. I am watching every video you link to, and try to understand what makes people buy this stuff. I am not ignoring facts, I am accepting the suffer Palestinians are experiencing, and I am not seeing it in a black-white way. I criticize Israel government for some things it does.
But one thing I fully justify and stand behind is that we should not apologize that we exist. We have every right to protect ourselves from people who their sole intention is to kill us. And unlike our enemy, we take every measure to minimize civilian casualties.
Mike, you speak as if everyone in Gaza are terrorists. Pull your head out of you ass and take a look around at the world and what Israel thinks their place is in it. Launching rockets into civilian occupied areas and committing acts of piracy on international waters justifies the act of calling what's going on "slaughter" and "massacre".
You got it wrong. The Palestinian are the one who fire rocket at civilians.
Israel sends leaflets and phones citizens to leave civilian areas when it attacks Hamas targets in it, unlike no other army in the world. Please read the wikipedia page for the war in Gaza and not propaganda spread by biased parties.
I do not think or said that everyone in Gaza are terrorists. All I am saying is that I am sorry for them. They are victims of their terrorist government who does not realize that they will not free Palestine by terror. They will free Palestine by discussing a solution with the Israelis.
Turns out Israel still has large supported in the US. But that does not make me think that I am right.
I think I have said everything I have to. It is saddening to see that balanced voices like me who truly seeks for peace and justice are frowned upon by supposedly intelligent people like you.
Enjoy living in your idealistic world, where Israel is all bad and Hamas is all good. I am not sure if something more complicated that this can fit in your brain.
I never said Israel is bad and hamas is good. maybe other military's in the word don't spread warning about their planned attacks because the actual targets will get word and move out of the way. o_0
Now why would you ask if Ledaro is Muslim? are you implying that all Muslims are terrorist? and the way you express your opinion like they are a plague on the world. In my honest opinion, all religion is pointless in this day and age, only serves to generate rage against other religions, sparking war and murder and serves as a crutch for people to use as an excuse to not help themselves. No offense intended to anyone.
What I don't get, is why you didn't shoot down my statement of Israel boarding aid flotillas and giving the medal of valor to the guy who killed 6 out of the 9 people killed on the flotilla.
now you said: "The Palestinians are *lucky* to have Israel as an enemy."
and
"You got it wrong. The Palestinian are the one who fire rocket at civilians."
But all of Palestine is not made up of hamas, unless they are, then by all means, kill them off slowly and torture them mentally. /end sarcasm.
I asked if Ledaro was Muslim, because I really don't get how he can be be so sympathetic with their pain and ignore their crimes and their lack of interest in peace.
I am not a religious person and I think too that religion is pointless if all its good for is to encourage hate.
"But all of Palestine is not made up of hamas"
As I wrote to you before on this page, I don't think they are all Hamas. And I do sympathize with the suffer they are going through because of the Hamas.
But can you give an example of any Palestinian leader (even dead one) that called for peace with Israel? Did any Palestinian leader said what they would like in exchange for peace? Actually it doesn't have to be a leader, it could be any Palestinian... So maybe they are not all active terrorists, but none of them really wants peace alongside Israel.
Please please please correct me if I am wrong about this one. This will really make me happy if I know that some of them want peace.
Ledaro said 1967 borders are a recipe for peace and I agree. But unfortunately there is no way for Israel to know that the Palestinians would accept that, so it can not withdraw itself unilaterally. They need a Palestinian that wants peace to discuss it with.
I think the Palestinians don't want peace because of the result of what has come of the attacks on each other. When innocent people die, other civilians tend to get pissed at that fact. Then religion is thrown into it and the whole "your kind of people suck because you think this" and "your people are swine" blah blah blah....
It's harsh to say, but the only way something like this will end is if one side is wiped out. But should that happen, the international community will frown upon the actions of the surviving party and more conflict will break out.
It's human nature to fight what's different then ones ways and beliefs and most religions only amplify the hate felt towards the other party.
I wouldn't commit acts of piracy and award trigger happy troops medals in the eyes of the international community. If an "aid flotilla" is suspected of containing supplies for terrorist organizations, load the boarding parties with stun guns and riot gear, not lethal weapons and live ammo.
I would use 3rd generation warfare tactics to hit prime targets and get out. It's cleaner and comes off as more professional in the eyes of the international community. If a leader like person is proved to be connected, they are to be taken out.
I'm not payed to think about how to get rid of rebels, If I was, they'd be gone. but so would I. XD
Thanks Shawn, and I am really happy that we can have the discussion at this level.
The soldiers from last week boarded the ship with paint ball guns (similar to your idea of stun guns), but they had real guns in their pockets in case their lives is in danger. The video coverage leaves no room for doubt, their lives were in danger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI
The award for the soldier that pulled the trigger is a rumor as far as I know. I have not heard it from any official source.
Israel does use very highly targeted weapons. For instance, we eliminate Hamas militants on their way to fire rockets regularly, and no harm is done to civilians. Of course there are counter examples, but this is war and mistakes happen.
The main problem that Israel faces in that regard is that Hamas has no problem firing rockets from civilian building, from UN schools, from hospitals and so on and using these as human shields. It is very common for Israel to call off an operation just because it will risk innocent people (I know this sounds like propaganda to Ledaro but this is on wikipedia's Gaza war page).
but there's only one problem with this, it's not war. much like the "war" in Afghanistan and Iraq, the military is fighting groups of people, not an organized military that follows the Geneva convention. there for, this isn't war, whether it's intentional or not it's slaughter and massacre, on both sides.
The use of white phosphorus was not an official IDF policy but a very wrong judgement call of two IDF chief officers. After internal IDF investigation these two officers were punished and Israel published a report with its conclusions.
I know it does not make it any better, but that was a huge mistake. Those kind of things are the exception and not the rule, but naturally they get the most attention.
For the Palestinians, the annihilation of Israel is public policy which they don't feel they have to apologize for. The Palestinians never showed any regrets on doing massive suicide bombings in busy markets and public buses as a public policy.
This is truly heart breaking. Children, babies and innocent people should not get killed or wounded in war. Ever. Period.
ReplyDeleteBut war is chaos and mistakes happen.
This is a testimony of a British Colonel for Israel and the IDF in the UN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE-sDemDWWI
You also never bring the suffering on the Israeli side which had forced it to start the war. I can provide material if you wish.
Mike, you must be a Rabbi because at least you recognize the atrocities of killing the children. Those are war crimes and crimes against humanity.
ReplyDeleteI started taking interest in Israel/Palestinians situation closely in the fall of 2008 when Israel invaded Gaza and slaughtered women and children. My source of information has been CNN, CBC and MSNB who are hardly pro-Gaza or Palestinians. As a matter of fact CNN quite often is blatantly pro-Israel.
Here is my assessment:
1) It was because of Israel that 9/11 happened. People of Egypt and Saudi Arabia are angry with US for imposing dictators on them. Then US made sure that these two countries are on US side when it came to Israel. Of course US wants Saudi Oil too. Now the same Egyptian and Saudi public is angry because of the way Palestinians are treated by Israel and massacred at will. That resulted in 9/11 tragedy, as you know all the participants were Arabs and majority were from Saudi Arabia and some from Egypt.
2) Then of course Afghanistan was invaded and Arab world feels that it is direct consequence of US/Israeli relations. Had there been no 9/11 there would have been no Afghanistan invasion.
3) Iraq invasion was for oil but it was also urged on by Israel, as it felt threatened by Iraq as it does now from Iran.
Now the world is catching on with Israel. Gaza massacre was roundly condemned by all nations. Now even US does not approve of Israeli policies and has indicated that Israel is endangering its soldiers in the Middle East.
Europe condemns Israeli policies; Asian countries with the exception of Israel condemn Israeli policies. Australia condemns Israeli policies. African countries condemn Israeli policies. Israel has no friends left because of its slaughter of Arabs and disapproval by the world. So, sir, Israel is on a self-destruct path.
The Palestinians are *lucky* to have Israel as an enemy. Here is why:
ReplyDeleteIn the Rwandan genocide 800,000 people were slaughtered.
In Darfur 300,000 people were slaughtered.
In the Armenian genocide only 1,500,000 people were slaughtered.
In the Holocaust, 6,000,000 Jews were slaughtered.
During the entire Gaza invasion only about a 1,400 people died, about 400 to 700 of them were militants.
The words "slaughter" or "massacre" could not be used to describe what happened in Gaza. If Israel wanted to slaughter or massacre, the numbers would be in the hundreds of thousands.
If Israel was like Germany, Austria or most European countries which you bring as an example, it would wipe the Palestinian long before now. It will not have so much tolerance as it does.
Today, they don't get that Israel is doing the dirty but necessary work of stopping the Arab world from having an Iranian base right next to Europe. They should be thankful, but they don't get it. Once the muslim population in their countries crosses a threshold, let's see what they'll do. I hope they will be more creative this time.
Are you muslim?
"The Palestinians are *lucky* to have Israel as an enemy."
ReplyDeleteYou have crossed the line of being a loony. Total population of Gaza is $1.5 Million. How many more they have to kill to qualify as murderer.
When a reputed Jewish British MP says that Israel is being like a Nazi then there is something wrong. When vast majority of Liberal Jews in America say Israel is wrong then there is food for thought for you.
When the whole world says Israel is wrong then you should give yourself a pause, shake your head and think about it.
I will be totally on Israeli side if following happens:
The Israeli war criminal are tried in an international court and convicted, when Israel abides by UN resolutions and pulls back to 1967 boundaries prior to 1967 war and when it recognizes Palestine as an independent state. Anything Arabs do against Israel after that I will be the first one to speak up. Until such time I will speak for the victims and against the war criminals.
Nough said. Go somewhere else because your bull is becoming annoying. I felt sympathetic towards you but not anymore.
Israel started already to pull back to 1967 borders on 2005. It stopped since it got more terror in return. The Palestinians will not be satisfied with what you think they will.
ReplyDeleteGood bye now, and I truly wish you will *not* experience Muslim terror on yourself or your loved ones.But if you will, maybe you'll finally get it.
Mike, I will like to be sympathetic to your cause but facts are not on your side. I have no use for fanatics and you started sounding like one.
ReplyDeleteI have quite often than not deleted comments from the opposite side to you. See this one on my test blog.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4418125990906141755&postID=6601140369490427840
I always deleted this guy's comments but he then chose to leave a comment on my test blog. He was terribly mad at me. I left the comment for the record. I am sure he would have broken my bones if could find me. That is how it goes.
I will do one more post with you in mind and you will get the idea where I am coming from.
Here is the link again for the test blog.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4418125990906141755&postID=6601140369490427840
Yeah, that comment you linked to is stupid and not helpful. Unlike that guy, I try to keep the discussion around facts and avoiding making it personal against you or anyone else, although we disagree. There is no way anyone would listen to the Israeli side of the story if it will not be told in the right way. And it is a shame, because I think you miss Israel's side of things.
ReplyDeleteI am not a fanatic. I am far from it. I am watching every video you link to, and try to understand what makes people buy this stuff. I am not ignoring facts, I am accepting the suffer Palestinians are experiencing, and I am not seeing it in a black-white way. I criticize Israel government for some things it does.
But one thing I fully justify and stand behind is that we should not apologize that we exist. We have every right to protect ourselves from people who their sole intention is to kill us. And unlike our enemy, we take every measure to minimize civilian casualties.
Mike, you speak as if everyone in Gaza are terrorists. Pull your head out of you ass and take a look around at the world and what Israel thinks their place is in it. Launching rockets into civilian occupied areas and committing acts of piracy on international waters justifies the act of calling what's going on "slaughter" and "massacre".
ReplyDeleteYou got it wrong. The Palestinian are the one who fire rocket at civilians.
ReplyDeleteIsrael sends leaflets and phones citizens to leave civilian areas when it attacks Hamas targets in it, unlike no other army in the world. Please read the wikipedia page for the war in Gaza and not propaganda spread by biased parties.
I do not think or said that everyone in Gaza are terrorists. All I am saying is that I am sorry for them. They are victims of their terrorist government who does not realize that they will not free Palestine by terror. They will free Palestine by discussing a solution with the Israelis.
Shawn, thank you. You said it so well.
ReplyDeletePeople who think they right and the whole world is wrong there is another name for them - dupes.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTurns out Israel still has large supported in the US. But that does not make me think that I am right.
ReplyDeleteI think I have said everything I have to. It is saddening to see that balanced voices like me who truly seeks for peace and justice are frowned upon by supposedly intelligent people like you.
Enjoy living in your idealistic world, where Israel is all bad and Hamas is all good. I am not sure if something more complicated that this can fit in your brain.
I never said Israel is bad and hamas is good. maybe other military's in the word don't spread warning about their planned attacks because the actual targets will get word and move out of the way. o_0
ReplyDeleteNow why would you ask if Ledaro is Muslim? are you implying that all Muslims are terrorist? and the way you express your opinion like they are a plague on the world. In my honest opinion, all religion is pointless in this day and age, only serves to generate rage against other religions, sparking war and murder and serves as a crutch for people to use as an excuse to not help themselves. No offense intended to anyone.
What I don't get, is why you didn't shoot down my statement of Israel boarding aid flotillas and giving the medal of valor to the guy who killed 6 out of the 9 people killed on the flotilla.
now you said:
"The Palestinians are *lucky* to have Israel as an enemy."
and
"You got it wrong. The Palestinian are the one who fire rocket at civilians."
But all of Palestine is not made up of hamas, unless they are, then by all means, kill them off slowly and torture them mentally.
/end sarcasm.
Hi Shawn,
ReplyDeleteI asked if Ledaro was Muslim, because I really don't get how he can be be so sympathetic with their pain and ignore their crimes and their lack of interest in peace.
I am not a religious person and I think too that religion is pointless if all its good for is to encourage hate.
"But all of Palestine is not made up of hamas"
As I wrote to you before on this page, I don't think they are all Hamas. And I do sympathize with the suffer they are going through because of the Hamas.
But can you give an example of any Palestinian leader (even dead one) that called for peace with Israel? Did any Palestinian leader said what they would like in exchange for peace? Actually it doesn't have to be a leader, it could be any Palestinian... So maybe they are not all active terrorists, but none of them really wants peace alongside Israel.
Please please please correct me if I am wrong about this one. This will really make me happy if I know that some of them want peace.
Ledaro said 1967 borders are a recipe for peace and I agree. But unfortunately there is no way for Israel to know that the Palestinians would accept that, so it can not withdraw itself unilaterally. They need a Palestinian that wants peace to discuss it with.
I think the Palestinians don't want peace because of the result of what has come of the attacks on each other. When innocent people die, other civilians tend to get pissed at that fact. Then religion is thrown into it and the whole "your kind of people suck because you think this" and "your people are swine" blah blah blah....
ReplyDeleteIt's harsh to say, but the only way something like this will end is if one side is wiped out. But should that happen, the international community will frown upon the actions of the surviving party and more conflict will break out.
It's human nature to fight what's different then ones ways and beliefs and most religions only amplify the hate felt towards the other party.
Shawn, I can agree with that that they don't want peace today because of past events.
ReplyDeleteSo if the Palestinians indeed do not want peace what choice do the Israelis have left then? Is the only option left is to fight forever?
What would you do now if you were the prime minister of Israel?
I wouldn't commit acts of piracy and award trigger happy troops medals in the eyes of the international community. If an "aid flotilla" is suspected of containing supplies for terrorist organizations, load the boarding parties with stun guns and riot gear, not lethal weapons and live ammo.
ReplyDeleteI would use 3rd generation warfare tactics to hit prime targets and get out. It's cleaner and comes off as more professional in the eyes of the international community. If a leader like person is proved to be connected, they are to be taken out.
I'm not payed to think about how to get rid of rebels, If I was, they'd be gone. but so would I. XD
Thanks Shawn, and I am really happy that we can have the discussion at this level.
ReplyDeleteThe soldiers from last week boarded the ship with paint ball guns (similar to your idea of stun guns), but they had real guns in their pockets in case their lives is in danger. The video coverage leaves no room for doubt, their lives were in danger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI
The award for the soldier that pulled the trigger is a rumor as far as I know. I have not heard it from any official source.
Israel does use very highly targeted weapons. For instance, we eliminate Hamas militants on their way to fire rockets regularly, and no harm is done to civilians. Of course there are counter examples, but this is war and mistakes happen.
The main problem that Israel faces in that regard is that Hamas has no problem firing rockets from civilian building, from UN schools, from hospitals and so on and using these as human shields. It is very common for Israel to call off an operation just because it will risk innocent people (I know this sounds like propaganda to Ledaro but this is on wikipedia's Gaza war page).
but there's only one problem with this, it's not war. much like the "war" in Afghanistan and Iraq, the military is fighting groups of people, not an organized military that follows the Geneva convention. there for, this isn't war, whether it's intentional or not it's slaughter and massacre, on both sides.
ReplyDeleteThe Hamas was elected by the Palestinians in a
ReplyDeletedemocratic elections.
It's not an unofficial group of people.
what about Israel using white phosphorus munitions in the Gaza war?
ReplyDeleteThe use of white phosphorus was not an official IDF policy but a very wrong judgement call of two IDF chief officers. After internal IDF investigation these two officers were punished and Israel published a report with its conclusions.
ReplyDeleteI know it does not make it any better, but that was a huge mistake. Those kind of things are the exception and not the rule, but naturally they get the most attention.
For the Palestinians, the annihilation of Israel is public policy which they don't feel they have to apologize for. The Palestinians never showed any regrets on doing massive suicide bombings in busy markets and public buses as a public policy.